tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post5056488869198144788..comments2024-03-13T04:04:32.568-07:00Comments on Sku's Recent Eats: Those Were the Days: Prohibition Era Bourbonsskuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00487419662314518931noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-10768063463474171862013-12-15T22:17:05.637-08:002013-12-15T22:17:05.637-08:00A fascinating report and a fascinating discussion ...A fascinating report and a fascinating discussion here as well. Thanks!My Annoying Opinionshttp://www.myannoyingopinions.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-25744980867213736242013-12-13T09:37:08.475-08:002013-12-13T09:37:08.475-08:00Adam, you had a chance to taste the better ones; T...Adam, you had a chance to taste the better ones; The LA Whiskey Society offered some really good examples; I wish I could have been there with you.<br /><br />A couple of the bottles that Sku singled out illustrate some of what I'm saying about consolidation.<br /> <br />The Dougherthy's (Country Gentleman) is a good example. As the label clearly states, it is indeed produced by the E.H. Taylor distillery in Frankfort (I'm guessing at today's Buffalo Trace, but possibly at the old castle distillery a couple miles down Glenn creek). Note, though, that the contents are identified as "Whiskey", NOT "Bourbon". I don't believe Taylor made anything but bourbon and perhaps some rye. At least not that they sold as E.H. Taylor. The bottling of this whiskey appears to have been put off until 1932, by which time everyone already knew Prohibition would soon be repealed.<br /><br />Actually, if Dougherty's had been smart, they'd have reserved that barrel to add to the very young whiskey everyone was going to be stuck trying to sell for the first few years after repeal. Others did do that.<br /><br />Joseph Finch made rye whiskey. They didn't make anything else. The fact that the label says only "Whiskey" is a dead giveaway that the contents are not 100% Joseph Finch Golden Wedding, regardless of the Bottled-in-Bond status. Remember that most of the qualifications for storage in a bonded (i.e. tax deferred) warehouse went out the window with the Volstead Act. During Prohibition ALL distilled spirits were bottled in bond; there weren't any liquor bottling lines other than in government bonded (and supervised) warehouses. Warehouse consolidation meant, essentially, federal confiscation of what had been privately warehoused product. Upon entry into the bonded warehouse system, the barrel became bonded whiskey. It's origin was likely to be listed as whoever owned it when it was brought to the bonded warehouse. Also, the date of distillation is overwhelmingly 1916 or 1917. Partially that's because distilleries cranked out a lot of raw whiskey in anticipation of Prohibition (remember, possession wasn't against the law; only distillation and distribution), but also because "distilled prior to 1918" was a common default date for whiskey whose actual distillation date wasn't specified.<br /><br />By the way, notice that neither of those were labeled "straight", which is now (and was before prohibition) a requirement for bottled-in-bond whiskey.<br /><br />The Old Fitzgerald, OTOH, is a real find, and must have been a total treat for all you lucky bast... folks who got to taste some. The Stitzel Weller distillery opened virtually as the last ring of the Repeal bell was fading out, and their brand was Old Fitzgerald. Of course, they had no aged bourbon to PUT in those bottles yet, and they wouldn't for at least two years (I think they actually waited for 5 years). That bottle was filled with bourbon (wheated bourbon at that) distilled at A. Philip Stitzel's distillery before Repeal. Stitzel had a medicinal spirits license, but I'll bet that whiskey was made in 1928 or 29, when there was a distilling period allowed (to replenish medicinal stock). That would have made it 5 years old when bottled (can't see the other side of the stamp, so that's just a guess). Anyway, I've got an example of early (1937) S/W Old Fitz, but I'd love to have had a chance to taste that one.<br /><br />As for barrel consolidation, I can tell you a lot about that, but only while we're sitting together sipping fine whiskey. I wouldn't dream of publishing my sources there. I can say, though, that the main reason it's done isn't for anything dishonest; it's just that 100 barrels, each 25% full of whiskey not only takes up four times the space, but also evaporates differently and produces a different quality of whiskey than full barrels. Remember, the vatted contents are being returned to the same barrels, not new ones; just fewer of them.EllenJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-24698215621250586172013-12-12T15:54:01.657-08:002013-12-12T15:54:01.657-08:00EllenJ, is there a lot of evidence of the rebarrel...EllenJ, is there a lot of evidence of the rebarreling you discuss? I can understand it happening here or there for whatever reason, but on the whole It would seem to be a waste of time/effort to do to any large extent, considering that there was ample warehousing space available, consolidation included. But I've admittedly never delved that deeply into the intricacies of consolidation.<br /><br />These bottles actually didn't all taste very similar to each other. They tasted that way in comparison to today's stuff, but anyone could pretty easily differentiate between them.Adam Hhttp://www.lawhiskeysociety.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-42979557666244819862013-12-12T15:07:20.534-08:002013-12-12T15:07:20.534-08:00Another factor, which is still around today but no...Another factor, which is still around today but not as much as it was then, is that whiskey is a COMMODITY, not a hand-crafted product. It never was, at least not the whiskey that would be available in bottles at a liquor store, grocery, or pharmacy. The various whiskey trusts of the time owned virtually all of the brands and all of the product that made it into the Prohibition bonded warehouses, and what they did with them would have made Diageo blush!<br /><br />Then, when those barrels were "consolidated" in the early '20s things got even worse. They weren't just shipped willy-nilly to "consolidation warehouses" and then vatted together as needed, to be bottled as whatever brand was being bottled that day (after all, they were all already "bonded" whiskey); they also were most likely vatted and then re-barreled to conserve storage space. That "little secret" is still being done today; there's certainly no reason to think it wasn't then.<br /><br />THAT's why the Prohibition bottlings, or at least a whole lot of them, seem to taste so similar. It also explains why Prohibition-era whiskey distilled "prior to 1916" and then bottled in, say, 1924 tastes so much better than the same whiskey bottled in 1929. It's not just that it got another 5 years of over-aging (which it did, of course) but also because it wasn't the best whiskey to begin with and no one wanted to bottle it until they'd run out of everything else.<br /><br />Also, another thing to remember in order to really put Prohibition into perspective is that it was NEVER a 14-year hiatus. The very Constitution of the United States had declared that no more beverage alcohol would ever be produced again. EVER!. Nada! Zip! Zilch point shit! The 18th Ammendment is the only amendment EVER to have been repealed; no one saw THAT coming. Well, almost no one. At least not the consumers.EllenJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-81894082583423821172013-12-12T06:19:14.294-08:002013-12-12T06:19:14.294-08:00Sam the Gibson's was the best of the bunch, a ...Sam the Gibson's was the best of the bunch, a really great rye. I've had one of their old Pennsylvania ryes as well and this was almost as good.skuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00487419662314518931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-46775561353831174962013-12-11T21:07:53.318-08:002013-12-11T21:07:53.318-08:00For what it's worth Joe, I have tasted some ho...For what it's worth Joe, I have tasted some horribly overaged Prohibition whiskeys. In fact, EllenJ claims that this is one of the reasons that there is still a fair amount of Prohibition whiskey around, but almost no pre-Prohibition whiskey with which to compare.sam knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-70536162019344851782013-12-11T19:34:10.006-08:002013-12-11T19:34:10.006-08:00Thanks for the post Sku. Very interesting indeed. ...Thanks for the post Sku. Very interesting indeed. The one thing that stood out to me even more than the marked difference in taste was the marked difference in age compared to current American whiskey. That seems to contradict the conventional wisdom that says bourbon and rye have traditionally been young and their "sweet spots" are in the 7-10 year range.<br /><br />JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-699028126210020302013-12-11T15:18:52.049-08:002013-12-11T15:18:52.049-08:00I agree to a point with Tom, but I'm of the op...I agree to a point with Tom, but I'm of the opinion that if these bottles (a broad sampling from many different mashbills, distillers, and regions) were almost uniformly drinkable, and even very good, that they probably remain somewhat close to their flavor roots.<br /><br />As the absolute essence of grain, whiskey keeps very well if unopened, I'm confident that the attendees of this event got to taste something close to what they'd have sampled if these were fresh out of the case in the dry years.<br /><br />I've had the privilege of opening a number of Prohibition bottlings of American whiskeys, and all were somewhere in the same ballpark in terms of consistency of flavor. In fact, I have to agree with Sku...I've had two versions of Prohibition-bottled Gibson's, and they were both amazing, though both were Pennsylvania-distilled, unlike this Illinois version.<br /><br />An enviable experience in any regard. Thanks for the report. We live vicariously through you!sam knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-10837592655033479882013-12-11T12:09:58.363-08:002013-12-11T12:09:58.363-08:00Tom, thanks for your thoughtful comments. You make...Tom, thanks for your thoughtful comments. You make an excellent point. These bottles were all in good condition with good fill levels, but with whiskey this old, there is just no way to know if they tasted the same as when they were bottled.<br /><br />The Scotch industry has tried what you suggest with mixed success. Macallan had its series of replica bottles, though I believe it turned out that some of them were based on whiskies that were not actually as old as they believed. And then there was the Shackleton replica that Whyte & Mackay made.<br /><br />Still if anyone can make a rye like the old Gibson's, I would snap it up.skuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00487419662314518931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-80826825731195949852013-12-11T12:00:48.452-08:002013-12-11T12:00:48.452-08:00Sku,
Thanks for yet another informative and inter...Sku,<br /><br />Thanks for yet another informative and interesting post!<br /><br />I once had the opportunity to taste a pre-Prohibition bourbon. I recall it was distinctly different from modern day products - spicier, with a touch of mint, and very good. However, the obvious caveat applies. We do not know that whiskey remains essentially the same after years in the bottle, even if the bottle is full or nearly full. So, in comparing very old distillates with their modern day equivalents, we cannot separate the effects of old vs. new production techniques from the effects of prolonged bottle age. <br /><br />That said, it is presumably possible to produce today a bourbon or rye that tastes very similar to those produced years ago and stored for years in the bottle. If anyone has tried to do so, I'll bet it is Buffalo Trace. Somewhere, among their 1000+ experimental barrels, I'll bet there is an attempt or two to recreate this taste of days of yore. Indeed, they have said they are recreating on an experimental basis, the bourbon recipes of E. H. Taylor.<br /><br />If a distiller can recreate this olde tyme taste, I am sure they will do so since it should be a very good seller. Many folks today really like big, bold whiskeys. Perhaps, however, the only way to get the olde tyme whiskey taste is to store your booze for countless decades in a bottle. If so, too bad!<br /><br />Tom TrolandAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9082156144028140004.post-87279854088105917342013-12-11T10:35:29.494-08:002013-12-11T10:35:29.494-08:00Man, what an awesome time-warp event to have taken...Man, what an awesome time-warp event to have taken part in.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07750058195438298365noreply@blogger.com